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del Message 1387379 has been deleted. Message: 1387463, 666 lines Posted: 5:40pm EDT, Sat Jul 12/86, imported: 8:40pm EDT, Sat Jul 12/86 Subject: Delphi Mac Digest V2 #28 To: Peter_Johnston@UQV-MTS, MacTechnics User Group, John Dorsey, Gavin Eadie, Alex_Ranous@UB-MTS, Abraham Vanderspek From: SHULMAN@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Delphi Mac Digest Saturday, 12 July 1986 Volume 2 : Issue 28 Today's Topics: HD-20 startup RE: HD-20 startup (Re: Msg 9949) RE: HD-20 startup (Re: Msg 9953) fractEnable MockPackage utlities Bugs Microsoft Word 2.0 RE: Microsoft Word 2.0 (Re: Msg 10015) disk labels QUED bugs & features RE: MockPackage utlities Bugs (Re: Msg 10002) MacWrite -> Wang WP? Smalltalk RE: Smalltalk (Re: Msg 10069) Copy-protection TEMPO and DA's RE: TEMPO and DA's (Re: Msg 10077) RE: Historic Moments of this SIG (Re: Msg 10087) RE: Historic Moments of this SIG (Re: Msg 10099) MSWord-BrotherHR RE: MSWord-BrotherHR (Re: Msg 10089) RE: Smalltalk (Re: Msg 10069) RE: Smalltalk (Re: Msg 10069) Desktop rebuilding tip backup/Dantz Software RE: HFS Backup Review & Fedit blues & C compilers for scientific applications RE: Aztec C version of Apple's List Manager example Macintosh Programmers Workshop RE: MacWrite -> Wang WP? (Re: Msg 10139) weird crash Upgrades...Anti-Capitalistic! 128K ROM and 400K HabaDisk ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From: PIZZAMAN (9949) Subject: HD-20 startup Date: 8-JUL-21:23: Hardware & Peripherals Silly question. Tonight, while starting up my enhanced 512 mac and my HD-20, -it occurred to me that this still was a two step process. Why wasn't the HD-20 designed so that it could start up, then boot from the new ROM chip, with just one power switch-on? Pretty stupid question, huh? Barry ------------------------------ From: MOUSEKETEER (9953) Subject: RE: HD-20 startup (Re: Msg 9949) Date: 8-JUL-21:35: Hardware & Peripherals Barry, Not a stupid question at all! In fact, I wondered the same thing for a couple of weeks. Then I went to the hardware store and bought a four outlet surge surpression strip. Since that day, it has been just one power switch-on! Alf ------------------------------ From: STOSH (9964) Subject: RE: HD-20 startup (Re: Msg 9953) Date: 8-JUL-22:32: Hardware & Peripherals Does the Apple HD-20 manual recommend NOT turning off the HD 20 unless it is not going to be used for a few days??? josh ------------------------------ From: DDUNHAM (9986) Subject: fractEnable Date: 8-JUL-23:59: Programming BTW, setting fractEnable does work in PageMaker. It does word wrap much -closer to what you end up printing. And it'll even kern! Problem is, fractEnable affects only QuickDraw. So the PostScript output is _not_ kerned. :-( ------------------------------ From: BMUG (10002) Subject: MockPackage utlities Bugs Date: 9-JUL-00:22: Programming Has anyone else had any problems with the new mockpackage utilites? So far, it's completly destroyed a hard disk system and finder and seems to have major problems with switcher/. Steve Costa/BMUG ------------------------------ From: MACMAG (10011) Subject: Microsoft Word 2.0 Date: 9-JUL-00:32: User Supported Software Got a little time to work with Microsoft Word 2.0 today. It's fairly re-designed and the thing that caught my eye the most was the -icons in the ruler (similar to MacWrite). The "Repaginate" is faster.... but I didn't really have anything huge in memory. There's a built-in dictionary, and you have the ability to view two full pages on the screen. Once displayed, you can reset margins etc. While in this mode I made the cursor change to a printer icon. I selected a portion of text (I suspect that this will enable yopu to print a portion of -the document) I say suspect because when I released the button... BOMB! Looks like it needs work. Anyways, it seemed far better than MacAuthor. Rich. ------------------------------ From: MACMAG (10019) Subject: RE: Microsoft Word 2.0 (Re: Msg 10015) Date: 9-JUL-00:49: User Supported Software Yes this is Microsoft Word 2.0 from Microsoft. Acording to them, it should be available around September/October. I'm excited. Rich. ------------------------------ From: MACINTOUCH (10046) Subject: disk labels Date: 9-JUL-23:55: Business Mac I ordered some disk labels from ComputerWare to go along with bulk Sony disks. (Disks: $2.00 for double sided, quantity 50; labels: 8 cents). They work very well -- you can write easily (even in pencil), they stick well, and they peel off OK. They're white and come on pin-feed paper. This seems like a better deal than packaged 10-to-a-box disks. Ric ------------------------------ From: DDUNHAM (10052) Subject: QUED bugs & features Date: 10-JUL 00:30 Bugs & Features Have I ever mentioned that QUED is very sensitive to Idle DAs? I think it's bombed on all 3 (often in a menu routine). Also, I normally test my DAs under QUED. Unfortunately, when I turn on TMON's scrambling, QUED usually dies before my DA. Hope you can pass this on to the appropriate parties. ------------------------------ From: RAMARREN (10053) Subject: RE: MockPackage utlities Bugs (Re: Msg 10002) Date: 10-JUL 01:57 Programming I have put latest MockWrite and MockPrinter onto three machines under systems 2.0,3.1.1,3.2, Finders 4.1,5.2,5.3; one is 512E w Apple HD20, one std -512/Hyper Drive, one MacPlus w HD20. Even modified the window and font resources, some other minor mucking about. Not a single problem yet. Extras has crashed many times, however. oh yeah, I even use it with ThunderScan running in background under Switcher, Versaterm connected to my vax at 1200 baud, and MockWrite editing on top of terminal. Seems pretty bulletproof to me... (other minor mucking about: a change to output documents w creator EDIT, so a double click gets me into the editor a quick copypaste from terminal.) Ramarren ------------------------------ From: WANGMGR (10068) Subject: MacWrite -> Wang WP? Date: 10-JUL 18:12 Business Mac Hi--I'm the SIG mgr over in the Wang SIG, and I need to find out how to convert a document created on a Mac with Macwrite into Wang word processing. I don't mean by doing it as a text file or ASCII file, but preserving as much of the special formatting in the Mac document as possible. What's called for I guess is a protocol conversion program on one machine or the other. There's none that I am aware of in the Wang world, so I thought I'd find out here if anyone knows of a way to do the conversion from the Mac side. Peabo's asked me this question before as well as others, and I've got a user now who has a 100-page document on the Mac to convert, so I thought I'd give it a shot here. By the way, the Mac's acceptance in many offices today is low (and I don't really think it's fair!), but if such a conversion between Mac and Wang were possible, I can assure you more of your conservative office mates would accept your use of a Mac at work (and probably soon want their own). Wang WP is the most widely used word processing, still. Thanks for any help or thoughts anyone here might have! Allan Trick ------------------------------ From: JIMSB (10069) Subject: Smalltalk Date: 10-JUL 19:18 Programming I was wondering if any one is using Apples version of Smalltalk 80 for the Mac and what views pro or con ? How does it compare with Lisp ? Are they comparable ? Jim ------------------------------ From: MACINTOUCH (10080) Subject: RE: Smalltalk (Re: Msg 10069) Date: 10-JUL 21:32 Programming For what it's worth, Alan Kay was recently saying that Smalltalk 80 was a long way from his original conception of Smalltalk and he wasn't too sure he wanted to get behind the new version. Ric ------------------------------ From: JIMSB (10071) Subject: Copy-protection Date: 10-JUL 19:26 Business Mac I've been using Interlace for my database work, it follows the Mac interface rather well. The form of copy-protection is reasonably friendly a validated copy only asks for the master every 14 days. For a good part of my work is done on a 1meg ram disk so I don't find the copy-protection to hampering. Jim ------------------------------ From: ROWLAND (10077) Subject: TEMPO and DA's Date: 10-JUL 21:02 Business Mac I was using tempo to do some things with a DA (Acta) - accomplished more or less what I wanted and then discovered a gotcha : tempo saves the macros with whatever application is open at definition time. Reasonable, except with a DA. Is there any workaround besides recording the same macros in each application ? Mike Burns ------------------------------ From: DDUNHAM (10078) Subject: RE: TEMPO and DA's (Re: Msg 10077) Date: 10-JUL 21:26 Business Mac Yeah, that's a real problem. I mentioned it to Rick Barron (prez of Affinity, publishers of Tempo) and one of the programmers. They thought it was a good idea, but I'm not sure what their upgrade schedule is (I think they're working on other projects currently). ------------------------------ From: PEABO (10100) Subject: RE: Historic Moments of this SIG (Re: Msg 10087) Date: 11-JUL 18:42 Mousing Around Assembly language in Lightspeed Pascal is handled exactly the way it is in LightspeedC ... use MDS and run RELCONV to convert to a Lightspeed library. Unfortunately, it is not possible at this time to mix LightspeedC and Lightspeed Pascal code in one application. peter ------------------------------ From: PEABO (10106) Subject: RE: Historic Moments of this SIG (Re: Msg 10099) Date: 11-JUL 18:52 Mousing Around Yes ... 125 smackers. Very decent price. That's the full retail list price, not the mail order price! :-) peter ------------------------------ From: MUSICWORKS (10089) Subject: MSWord-BrotherHR Date: 11-JUL 00:23 Mousing Around When you happened to be using MS-Word version 1.05 or earlier and using it on -a hardisk or non original Master Disk (MS-WORD) with Brother HR Letter Quality printer... you will find it crashing alot, specially when you choose the printer setup -and choose Brother (printer) which by the way has to be on the ROOT Directory or else it wont find it... It turns out to be that you need the font DOVER to be in the system so the solution is just move the font with DA Mover from the orginal disk to your system that will fix the problem Jundi ------------------------------ From: MACINTOUCH (10097) Subject: RE: MSWord-BrotherHR (Re: Msg 10089) Date: 11-JUL 09:22 Mousing Around Yes, this is also true with the Apple daisy wheel printer. Good tip! Ric ------------------------------ From: RAMARREN (10094) Subject: RE: Smalltalk (Re: Msg 10069) Date: 11-JUL 02:28 Programming I have had Smalltalk-80 for some time, but only recently have had a hard disk touse it in conjunction with. My machine is still 512K, although that is going to change next week. The Level0 image seems to be minimal: on the floppy environment I was running out of space almost immediately after trying to browse any of the system and found it unusable. with the HD20, and the new ROMS, if you put it into the root directory with all sources and Goodies files (don't put anything into folders under HFS as it wont find them) I haven't run out of memory yet with 512K, which is great as I am just doing exploratory probing now. But I suspect that you don't have a usable system until you have a megByte or more to install the full Level1 image. I am doing a 2Meg upgrade specifically to run this environment, as I want room for growth. comparison with LISP:: I am not a LISP programmer; i have been playing with XLisp a little lately and iit is much faster than Smalltalk is at present. My impression is that LISP will be a fundamentally different, more 'normal' programming environment, particularly if you buy ExperLISP. Smalltalk is for me, at present anyway, a hobby and a fascination. At the price I paid, $50, even unsupported, it is amazingly comcomplete as an implementation. (XLisp is also a hobby an fascination, but of a different order.) The disks alone are almost worth the dollar amount. by the way, there is a good book out called 'Object Oriented Programming on -the Macintosh' from Hayden which presents MacApp and Object Pascal primarily, but does talk about Smalltalk and ExperLISP on the Mac as well. I just finished reading it and I am fairly psyched. Let me know if you start working with Smalltalk; one of the problems I have -run into is finding anyone to discuss practical problem solving techniques and experience with the language. Aren't too many Smalltalkers out there! Ramarren ------------------------------ From: LOGICHACK (10158) Subject: RE: Smalltalk (Re: Msg 10069) Date: 12-JUL 15:24 Programming I play with Mac Smalltalk all the time. Its pretty much the same as the Goldberg and Robson describes it. I guess you might say that both LISP and Smalltalk deal with programming at a higher conceptaul level... I just got a book called "A Taste of Smalltalk" and it is an excellent intro for Smalltalk. By Ted Kaehler and Dave Patterson, published by Norton. By the way, has anyone gotten the new Mac+ compatible smalltalk? Paul ------------------------------ From: MACINTOUCH (10113) Subject: Desktop rebuilding tip Date: 11-JUL 19:28 Bugs & Features I have had trouble rebuilding the desktop on the HyperDrive using the option-command technique documented in Power User Notes. Using the Drawers DA and holding down the keys didn't work. Fortunately, there is an easy way around this: just hold down the keys as you quit from an application! (You could also use the old command-option-double-click-the-Finder trick I suppose.) Ric ------------------------------ From: MACINTOUCH (10114) Subject: backup/Dantz Software Date: 11-JUL 19:54 Business Mac We currently are looking at a Bernoulli Box 10+10 SCSI disk, and it comes with a utility called MegaCopy, written by Dantz Software in Berkeley. This is probably the slickest backup program we've seen yet. Someone has hacked the program to disable the Iomega dependency. Beware that the program is copyrighted by Dantz Software and is definitely not public domain or shareware. Fortunately, Dantz seems to be working on a program that includes the -functions of MegaCopy, as well as additional file management, due out in the fall. One of the guys there is on Delphi as LARRYV. The author of the program is listed as Richard Zulch. You can give them a call at 415-849-0293 in -Berkeley. Ric Ford, "MacInTouch" ------------------------------ From: PEABO (10121) Subject: RE: HFS Backup Review & Fedit blues & Subject: C compilers for scientific applications Date: 11-JUL 23:46 Network Digests >From: harrow@exodus.dec.com (Jeff Harrow, NCSE LKG1-3/F16 DTN=226-7445) >Subject: HFS Backup-RESTORE Review, and Apple HD20 \"Missing Space\"... >Date: 5 Jul 86 21:54:49 GMT >Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation >From: 6090617@PUCC.BITNET (Robert Wald) >Subject: Fedit blues >Date: 7 Jul 86 18:07:30 GMT >Organization: Princeton University Computing Center, NJ These two observations are related. First, the discrepency between 19171K and 20 megs -- the Finder now uses the convention K=1024 (it used to use K=1000), so this is really 19,631,104 bytes. Add to that the undocumented space used by the Catalog Btree and Extents Btree (165K apiece??) and you get a number something like 19,960,000 bytes. Second, the missing space that was recovered by the backup & restore, and the complaint about Fedit not working well -- I had the same problem. When I did the backup and restore, Fedit+ 1.0.4 suddenly started working fine. I have recovered space from my HD-20 on several occasions by backing up and restoring (using HFS Backup) and my conclusion is that this is caused by the frequent system crashes I subject my Mac to. I suppose the Extents Btree is getting mangled in such a way that normal operation of the file system is not impaired, but an exhaustive perusal of it (such as by the Fedit+ fragmentation index) reveals garbage, and consequently some space has become unaccounted -for. I have not noticed any data mangling in files that I can access. >From: scottm@tekgen.UUCP (Scott Maxson) >Subject: C compilers for scientific applications >Date: 8 Jul 86 18:06:54 GMT >Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton, OR Your correspondant mentions LightspeedC ... while I can't do any benchmarks of its performance vs. Consulair, LightspeedC defaults to 80 bit floating point representation when the type 'double' is used, and requires 'short double' (non-standard, but sensible) to get 64 bit floating point. peter ------------------------------ From: PEABO (10123) Subject: RE: Aztec C version of Apple's List Manager example Date: 11-JUL 23:59 Network Digests >Date: Tue, 17 Jun 86 23:14:30 mdt >From: dlc%b@LANL.ARPA (Dale Carstensen) >Subject: Aztec C version of Apple's List Manager example I can't comment on Pascal vs. C, but Apple did release the List Manager example in Macintosh format in Volume I Issue 3 of the Macintosh Software Supplement this past week. (This is what was once going to be called the 3/86 Supplement.) peter ------------------------------ From: RAMARREN (10135) Subject: Macintosh Programmers Workshop Date: 12-JUL 03:35 Programming By the way, I have it on very reliable sources that Apple is JUST ABOUT ready to release their replacement for the Lisa/MacXL development system. (well, maybe 'partially reliable' and sometimes speculative....) Turns out that some of the folks I work with are connected to the software house that did parts of it. The TeaserRumor: C, Pascal, and Assembly in an integrated environment with a shell editor/command envelope. MacApp integrated with the everything. integrated Resource compiler. etc, etc. NOTE: this is a rumor supported by much sniveling and keyhole listening!! Anyone else heard anything? I expect it will be expensive, but for commercial applications development it might be what I have been hoping would appear. In the meanwhile, I really do like Pascal for the most part, I guess that means I am a naughty child as opposed to a consenting adult. Ramarren nicklaus who? ------------------------------ From: DWB (10145) Subject: RE: MacWrite -> Wang WP? (Re: Msg 10139) Date: 12-JUL 05:24 Business Mac While we are on the subject of converting MacWrite documents to something the other guys can use. Does anybody have a use for a box that would let you use {pc,ms}dos disks on your mac. I believe that I can make everything work out so that you could use the finder to drag things around, open text documents as such using Write or other macintosh editors, etc. In other words it would pretty much look like a macintosh diskette, the only difference being that when you got through with it you could take it over to your PC and read the documents with it there. Presumably there would also be some software to convert MacWrite documents to other WP formats. A similar product might also be possible for Wang stuff. I don't know what disk format they are using this week though. At one time they were using 8" floppies with the rest of the world, 8" would be a problem with the hardware I'm thinking of although just about any reasonable 5.25" would be real easy (Apple II and TRS-80 aren't reasonable by the way) If you have a use for such a thing, how much would it be worth to have it? $500, $600, $50, ... David ------------------------------ From: DDUNHAM (10142) Subject: weird crash Date: 12-JUL 03:55 Bugs & Features Wow, that was strange. I was sitting in QUED, typing away in miniWRITER, when the system crashed (don't know what, since I was in the middle of typing and didn't realize for a while I was in TMON). I heard my phone click simultaneously, so perhaps I had neglected to hang up the modem, and Tymnet chose then to time out. Would the serial drivers cause such weirdness? (luckily, miniWRITER asked me about saving changes when I did an ExitToShell) ------------------------------ From: PIZZAMAN (10148) Subject: Upgrades...Anti-Capitalistic! Date: 12-JUL 08:14 Hardware & Peripherals Apple Computer...Anti-Capitalistic! Think about it. Built-in obsolescence is the American way! When you buy a car, you expect that the following year, there will be prettier lights, fenders, dashboards etc. The Super-Duper model III that you bought becomes "last year's model". Have to get a new one. Just what does Apple think it is doing making all of it's advancementsJavailable as upgrades? Are they trying to destroy capitalism? I bought a 128K Macintosh a few melleniums ago, and it is still running like a charm. This is rediculous! Of course, I have added an external drive, a few K of memory into the depths of it, and a few other parts and pieces. But it is the origional machine, looks the same, and still is the best computer on the market today. How can that be? Could you imagine Chevrolet doing that? Want the new bumper that comes with -the 1986 Capri? Sure, just come on down and we will upgrade it for you. By the -way, we now have a little thing called a Turbo, that will allow you to get good mileage at normal speeds, but will also allow you to safely pass an 18 wheeler when you need to. Want one? Just come on down and we will upgrade you. Want -the fancy new safety taillight assembly? Come on down and we will upgrade you. And by the way, we have a number of different upgrades depending on your needs. Sure. Some of my friends have other computers. They are much happier then I am because the can keep their comfortable old computers. No need to worry about new upgrades. When the time comes, they simply trash their old XT, in the scrape heap, and buy the newest version of their company's computer. Just like buying a new car. Now, that's American! They have a machine that has stayed the same over the years, rather than "changed", and they don't need the new fangled models that their company puts out every couple of months. Wait till the old one gets rusty, trash it, and get a "new" one. All kidding aside, I would like to thank the Apple Computer Company for all -the pleasure I have had over the past 3 years. Starting with my 128K beauty, and Macwrite and Macpaint (two programs that still amaze), I have essentially been able to have 5 different computers. I have heard of many complaints about the cost of the upgrades (yes, I paid approximately $900 to go from a 128 to a -512K Mac), but at least they were available. If I had to buy an XT, then an AT, -then whatever else over the same period of time, in addition to the "graphics" -card, the "modem" card, the "color" card, the memory card etc., I'm sure I would -have spent more. And what price can you place on being on the cutting edge of new technolgy as it develops? Its been fun just watching the software develop and keep up with the hardware advancements. I can still remember the exitment of discovering "Smoothtalker" in San Francisco. I had been suffering "software deprevation" for a number of months with my 128K Mac. I was in San Francisco for a meeting, and was hungrily searching all the computer stores for a sign on something other than Macwrite and Macpaint. This salesperson, who had never seen a Mac before, told me she had just gotten a demo, and would I like to take a look at it? All of a sudden, like magic, the silent little computer, that I had been sitting in front of for months, began to talk to me! My next discovery was a program called "Straighttalk". I had been trying to get a modem to work with my Mac, and there wasn't any software to run it. We had promises of "Macterminal", but it wasn't available. A public domain program was available on Compuserve, but that was a catch 22. In order to download it, you needed a telecommunications program. Huh? I found this little company in Montpelier, Vermont, that was writing a program that could do what I wanted. One room, on the second floor of a little storefront building, with about 4 computers. I happened to be in Montpelier for another meeting (I live in Vermont), so I visited. It was a beauty. Auto log on, etc. Another little miracle. The Macintosh has been an adventure, available to everyone. A bug here, an upgrade there, has just made it that much more exiting. Now, I amaze myself everyday with how slick HFS is in flying through all the files on my hard disk. But I still remember the 32 disk swap routines of the origional version with one drive. What is the value of such an adventure? Who knows. What is the value of being allowed to be part of the C.C.C. (counter-computer-culture) revolution? Where we have computers that can grow and mature over the years, rather than become obsolete? Who knows. The value of being allowed to be anti-capitalistic without being labeled a commie? Who knows. One thing I know, though. It has been worth every penny I've spent to upgrade my little 128K Macintosh to it's present form, with it's 512 of RAM, it's 128K of ROM, it's 800K of internal disk drive, and it's 20 megabytes of external memory. Apple, keep up the good work. I'm looking forward to spending some money on your next upgrade. I am certain it will be worth every penny! Thanks for a great time. ------------------------------ From: TECHNISOLVE (10155) Subject: 128K ROM and 400K HabaDisk Date: 12-JUL 12:36 Bugs & Features Anyone have success using a old HabaDisk 400K drive with the new 128K ROM on a 512K Mac. Can't read anything or Init any disks since I had my Mac upgraded. I didnt't upgrade the logic board to a plus just the ROM and internal drive. HELP. ------------------------------ End of Delphi Mac Digest ************************ ------- Next, history, delete, reply, help, etc.? @